Head teacher: ‘stupid’ obsession with Welsh language is harming our children
I’m a primary school headteacher and have worked in Wales for over 30 years. I was born in Wales and educated in Wales.
It’s a largely unspoken opinion – mainly because of the legal/professional implications – among the huge majority of education professionals in Wales that the situation regarding the teaching of Welsh is ridiculous.
We have children struggling to master the basics of the most valuable, widely spoken yet complex language in existence but we are forced to use Welsh phrases when teaching it. Many children in Wales suffer because of this – not to mention the teachers who have to endure the absolute stupidity of working in this way.
Money is also wasted on the teaching of Welsh. Huge grants (£2500) are made available to release teaching staff for 3 weeks at a time to “upskill” them in Welsh – no such funds exist to “upskill” teachers in literacy or numeracy!
The latest drive to improve education standards includes grants to schools – the Welsh Education Grant (WEG) – which MUST be used to train teachers in Welsh.
Many schools (mine included) find this money hard to spend. To release teachers for training in Welsh when the priorities are literacy and numeracy means you compromise the most important aspects of learning. Perhaps the large funding gap between Wales and England would be reduced if we stopped wasting money like this.
Another scandal is the regularity with which Welsh medium primary schools encourage parents of children who are struggling at school to revert to English medium schools because “they are not coping with the language”.
This has become a very convenient way of getting rid of those pupils whose performance would not enhance the results of the school or whose behaviour has become problematic.
I have experienced this tactic on many occasions – one particular school is renowned for it and has used it to great effect, flooding local English medium schools with its “rejects”, ensuring that its performance figures look very good indeed.
I have seriously considered leaving for England on many occasions – especially when I was told that Welsh is now judged to be as important as English in the judgement of performance of all schools – including English-medium schools.
Nobody has yet answered the simple question – “why”? We compromise our children’s futures, alienate incomers, spend huge amounts on bilingual road signs and insist that all official documents are bilingual. Why?
We are definitely at the mercy of the minority – how much longer can this go on?
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You are not alone pragmatic. I would not allow my children to the lab rats of the nationalists. I left Wales and sought better education. I do not believe the policy of bilingualism in Wales is honest for a start. If it was the anthem would be on the agenda for change and it isn’t. The nationalists have the country by the short and curlies.
What the nation builders fail to tell you is that Wales was created by an English King and used to be made up as described here. http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/culture/sites/aboutwales/pages/history.shtml
Wales is bicultural not bilingual.
England is multicultural, with one language, how does the English language detract from the culture’s of the people that have moved to England?
Of course that information from the bbc shows England made Wales. Clearly, there weren’t people in wales thousands of years before the saxons rocked up!
This is a brave posting from a working headteacher. And it’s the teachers who are in the best position to challenge this madness – we need to hear from more of them. Shame that one of the first responses is Dick Parry’s incoherent comment.
Head teachers are paid to do a jobs, and not to blame poor performance on the curiculum they seem relucatant to implement.
Professional teachers are paid to lead. When they are asked to lead their pupils in to a black hole they speak out – professionally. Would you prefer lemmings?
Gogwatch. You’ve removed my comment reproving Dick Parry for using the term ‘saxon’ and yet you’ve allowed it to stand in his original remarks. Why?
Whilst we agreed that his comment was incoherent, we could not see how it was racist!
If you started to delete comments for incoherence God help nospin!
Stand your ground Dr. Caligari, don’t let them delete your post and impute accusations that you did not make.
I think it was you who called it racist – but let that pass. This is the first time that teachers have entered this debate and it’s far too important to quibble over details.
Agreed
“England is multicultural, with one language..”
Have you ever been to England? The multi-cultural England I know has multiple languages, multiple religions, and multiple skin colours… Mostly rubbing along together in reasonable harmony.
England also has a significant number of ethnic minority families who have chosen to disregard the linguistic psycho-babble, and in many cases pressure from within their own ‘communities’, and bring their kids up entirely in English.
It really is strange to see young kids talking with their own grand-parents using their bi-lingual parents as translators. But parents who are ambitious for their kids tell me THEY think it is worth it. But what do they know – as their kids increasingly become the doctors, lawyers, and teachers of tomorrow?
Pragmatic – like the headteacher who kindly posted his/her experience above.
*Wales is multicultural.
Multiculturalism is a socialist ideology. Wales has two cultures. Welsh and Cymry.
I myself am a teacher in an English speaking city comprehensive school that agrees entirely with the Head teachers comments. Here is few things I have noticed in my time in teaching.
Everyday I have to listen to pupils moaning about how much they don’t see the point of learning Welsh. (The Welsh teacher is superb and deserves no criticism).
I have to speak some incidental Welsh during my lessons and have even lost INSET time to Welsh lessons instead of doing some thing useful like extra training on teaching literacy or numeracy.
This year only 2 pupils decided they wanted to opt for GCSE Welsh which shows the level of enthusiasm for the subject.
As a subject I have very limited resources whereas money seems to be thrown at the Welsh department. We have pupils coming to our school who have been advised to leave the Welsh speaking schools due to their poor knowledge of the language and as a result tend to be disruptive and behind their expected level of attainment.
Funding has all but dried up for the Welsh Assembly Government’s Graduate Teacher Programme (designed to encourage experienced graduates into teaching) whereas one of the few sponsored subjects is still Welsh.
Parents have complained that we are an English speaking community and as such they feel there is no need for this compulsory Welsh obsession.
A primary school in the city has closed due to supposed future falling pupil numbers but less than 2 years latter it is now proposed to open as a Welsh speaking school.
I often ask myself if the money spent on the Welsh language is money well spent on creating a stronger more prosperous Wales for the pupils I teach and my only conclusion is no.
Thanks for sharing your experience with us. The sad irony is that hundreds of thousands of children will grow up hating the Welsh language because of WAG’s over-zealous attempts to keep it alive.
Hate is a very strong adjective to use. However it is my experience. I know I hated the incidental Welsh INSET I was coerced in to studying. You can take a horse to water.
Wonderful and about time! I totally agree with this. I am tired of the fact that myself and my family are being treated as second class citizens in our country.
This has got to change.
Well done for speaking out. You are so right that this madness has to stop. I wish more teachers would join in and force the Assembly government to listen.
I teach in an FE college and I know from first hand the damage that the focus on learning Welsh has done to many young people.
Some are verging on illiterate, many more unable to express themselves clearly and correctly in English.
I hope my children are not going to the same school as this headteacher leads. Very irresponsible in my opinion.
Dick P,
Just why is this headteacher irresponsible?
It seems to me, that a teacher that thinks ‘Welsh’ is stupid will not be one that implements and teaches it well in his school. It would be taught begrudgingly and as little as possible. Consequently, the children would dislike and resent Welsh, as well as not being very good at it. They’d probably do badly at it in the SATs(if there is such a thing these days?) and would struggle with it in secondary school. In my opinion, the headmaster in this instance would have failed the children.
Also, I would HOPE, that while staff might not speak Welsh very well, that they would be proficient enough in literacy and numeracy not to require ‘upskilling’ in those?! Surely?
Read it again. He does not say that Welsh is stupid.
This snatching at words and going on a rant ruins a proper debate.
Perhaps you have been damaged by WM?
Sorry? I inferred(probably correctly tbh) a dislike of Welsh from what this headteacher wrote. This OBVIOUS dislike and mistrust is what I was referring to, and my point still stands.
It is correct that they didn’t directly call the language stupid, instead referring to a “stupid obsession”, but I never said they DID directly call it stupid.
If we’re being picky, I’d like to point out that not once in my post did I directly reference the person who wrote this article. I said “a teacher”. I would suggest that you read MY post again, and please refrain from childish insults. I do not appreciate the implication that I am “damaged”!
Why?
In the words of my Professor;
Read some more and you may find the answer.
Well said Gweirydd.
How on earth do they manage in Belguim, Holland, Switzerland to name just a few other nations?
If you listen to some, it appears in Wales we are trying to ‘inflict’ knowledge upon our children.
Poor literacy has more to do with a growing disregard for reading and the rules of grammar – in any language.
At the school where I work we recently received a pupil who spoke no English. We thought the pupil was educated in French only to discover Swahili is the child’s natural tongue. All work I translated into French and Swahili.
The pupil attends all lessons with extra support for English. You ought to see the child now. In a matter of months he / she will put to shame the majority of children at KS3 who have been in the system and cannot master the basic rules of English, but to rephrase it – don’t want to master, can’t be bothered to master the simple basic rules of English.
And who do the parents of these indolent children blame? Oh yes of course – the Welsh language policy.
And for the record the child is remarkably competent (verbally more than in written work but that will come) at English, French, Swahili and indeed Welsh.
It’s the willingness to learn and the open mind information goes into – not the closed mind of ‘monoglotism’ that counts.
Dai Berry,
I was unaware that in Belgium, Holland and Switzerland – to name but a few – they teach their children through their second language?
At the school where you work, maybe you have the time and the inclination to offer extra help to pupils who are struggling due to language problems.
Re:The pupil speaking Swahili first language-
And you duly translated all work into French/Swahili for them.
Do WM teachers have the time or inclination to translate all work into English for first language English pupils?
Not in my experience, or my children’s experience.
I’m so pleased for the pupil in your school, but please be aware that not all schools offer this advantage to struggling English speaking children.
Welsh Parent
Hello and nice to hear from you.
The children of many other nations are taught other languages.
Sorry to cause confusion, I was a bit vague, but I teach English in an English medium school.
The pupil in question gets no help from any outside agency. The agency in charge of such things said they have nothing to offer.
Now there are two choices here:
1. Let the child flounder
2. Do our / my best, however rubbish but do something.
I wouldn’t be doing my job if I let the child flounder. It is part of my job to do whatever I can to help any pupil to the best of my ability. So with the help of a Polish support worker (strategies used), the child is flourishing.
As for WM education not doing the same. There are plenty of English medium schools who fail, I’ve worked in enough of them. It has nothing to do with Welsh language policy.
Children who are in the system should be competent having been in the system. If they are not, they should be supported in school and at home, along with giving up a little of their time to improve.
It may be hard to stomach, but sometimes, the individual pupil has to look at themselves to improve.
I notice that no one is responding to these two statements.
1) Another scandal is the regularity with which Welsh medium primary schools encourage parents of children who are struggling at school to revert to English medium schools because “they are not coping with the language”.
This has become a very convenient way of getting rid of those pupils whose performance would not enhance the results of the school or whose behaviour has become problematic.
I have experienced this tactic on many occasions – one particular school is renowned for it and has used it to great effect, flooding local English medium schools with its “rejects”, ensuring that its performance figures look very good indeed.
and
2)
Gethin Thomas, Head of Ysgol Dewi Sant, Llanelli, let the cat out of the bag on the apparent success of Welsh Medium education. He stated that any child who cannot handle WM education is asked to leave. In other words – dumped, damaged, back into the mainstream system. What if this happened to your child?
1) There’s no evidence for this.
2) All schools do this, regardless of language. WM is not more difficult to handle than mixed medium or EM. It isn’t a language issue.
(1) There’s no evidence, as such, for a lot of things. That doesn’t mean that they aren’t true. What you really mean is that you don’t want to accept this account as being factual. However, even where I live, the Welsh Medium School loses pupils in years 7 and 8 who can’t cope in Welsh. I don’t think that they are asked to leave, it just becomes evident that they can’t cope through the medium of Welsh. All of those kids have been through WM primary school and emerged non-fluent. But the lack of language fluency has already inhibited their capacity to keep up in other subjects as well as their all important self confidence.
(2) What do you mean “all schools do this”? The statement relates to Welsh Medium education:-
“He stated that any child who cannot handle WM education is asked to leave.” Therefore it is self evident that such a thing can only happen in WM schools.
Are you suggesting that schools ask pupils to leave if they can’t understand English well enough? With school banding dependent on ability in English there would be mayhem if EM schools just dumped pupils who had poor literacy skills.
The claim that all pupils, even all those from an English home background, are fully fluent, on a par with first language Welsh speaking kids at the end of year six is a MYTH and a dangerous one at that.
Daniel
Are you dismissing this head teacher”s experience and the head from Llanelli’s statements as mere anecdotes?
Are you telling us that EM schools transfer those who cannot handle english into the WM sector?
I think if you’re going to state that WM regularly do things at an institutional level you should be able to prove it.
I am saying that all types of schools tell problem children to leave eventually, it isn’t unique to the WM.
In what way is a child who has not managed to learn a particular subject (in this case the medium of education as well) a “Problem Child”. He is a problem only in that the system that he has been educated under has failed him.
I’m saying that WM schools don’t ask children to leave because they can’t cope with the medium but that in any school there are going to be children asked to leave if it is against their interests to keep them in the school. In my time at a Welsh comprehensive I never heard of anyone being kicked out because they couldn’t cope with the medium, plenty were kicked out because of bad behaviour etc. just like they would be from any other school.
An interesting poll from BBC Cymru on the Future of the language;this quote caught my eye:-
“The survey shows a difference of opinion among Welsh speakers and non-Welsh speakers on whether parents and pupils should be given the option not to study Welsh as a school subject.
While over half (55%) of Welsh speakers say this should not be optional, more than half (56%) of non-Welsh speakers are in favour of being given the option”
I think that perhaps the time has come for a more reasoned approach to the teaching of Welsh. This appears to say that 45% of Welsh speakers believe that COMPULSORY Welsh lessons are a mistake. Since the Welsh speakers and non Welsh speakers were evenly balanced in this survey it suggest that a narrow majority of the population is in favour of freedom to choose or refuse Welsh in the curriculum.
I haven’t read the survey yet though so this statement may be misleading.
Yes. Head teachers ARE paid to do a job. And if that head teacher has been in schools for 30 years, don’t you think he/she has the experience and knowledge to pass comment and make reliable judgements on this subject?
A growing number of children today start school at a very different level than they did years ago. In a selfish, materialistic world of multiple tv channels, x-boxes, iPods, Nintendo DSIs and working parents, children need a lot more “teaching” when they come to us in school.
As an infant (sorry….. “Foundation Phase”) teacher, I have a very important job to do in order to get these children to the required level (sorry…. “outcome”) by the time they are 7. A job I am more than capable of doing very well. I enjoy teaching them about the culture of Wales. If they can read well in English, the technical world of the Internet helps them explore their country in more detail. I am busy planning lovely activities for March 1st which includes singing some songs in Welsh.
However, It is not necessary for these children to have a Welsh language curriculum forced upon them. Maybe from the age of 11 when they are competent in their mother tongue? (I started French at the age of 11, achieved a good A Level and continue to understand it well when on holiday.)
I voted “yes” for devolution and have regretted it ever since. I also often think that teaching in England would be a better option.
Today’s children present us with some challenges and yet the Welsh Assembly government is determined to use them as guinea pigs.
Well done to the head teacher who is brave enough to publish his/her views. Please make them official before you leave the profession.
Dai, are you a teacher or at least a parent of school age children? Sorry but if you are neither you cannot really comment on this.
I would like to also point out that your argument does not explain the Welsh language only schools that are appearing in my predominantly English speaking area.
This is a ridiculous statement, everyone should be entitled to comment on this issue. For example I fall into neither of these groups but, due to Gwynedd’s insistence, have read nearly every policy document linked on this site before posting again. Would you deny me the chance to put this knowledge to good use?
Keep posting Dai, if this person really was ‘RealWelsh’ he’d love a debate!
Daniel,
I believe you need real first hand experience to comment on this issue. This debate was started by an experienced head teacher. Any other comments would surely have less value?
Anyway the comments seem to argue against Welsh language only schools.
What if one is a school-age child? Surely as valid a viewpoint as a headteacher or a parent? As a teenager in a Welsh medium school, I think I in fact have a better perspective than many.
How do you view the idea of asking every pupil over, say, age 7 whether they want to to taught Welsh or not?
And let them opt out if they say they don’t want it?
dispozest,
Perhaps, while you’re at it, you’d like to ask every pupil over the age of 7 if they want to study Maths or not? ‘And let them opt out if they say they don’t want it?’
I left Welsh medium school last year, so like Deallus I feel I can offer a better perspective in some senses.
I just think everyone has something to contribute, don’t just dismiss them because they don’t hold a certain position.
BBC Wales Cymru up to their old tricks again; What do you think that this means:-
“A total of 72% believe that making sure that education in Welsh is available for children in Wales is the most important way to protect the language.
That figure was the same among Welsh and non-Welsh speakers, with the highest figures amongst individuals who had children younger than 15.”
Pretty straight forward isn’t it? Who would have thought that this was not a free choice but an either or question!
” Q1 Firstly, can I ask which one of these in your opinion is most important in terms of protecting the Welsh language?”
(a)That Welsh language
education is available for
children in Wales.
(b)That parents choose Welsh
language education for their
children.
So the question is about the METHOD of “protecting the Welsh Language”. It doen’t actually ask if the respondent agrees or disagrees with the provision of Welsh Language education. In fact it’s the second question that is interesting only 25% think that it is important to “choose” Welsh language education when it is there.
Sorry, the link;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-16985298
I also notice only 4% use Welsh exclusively at home, another 1% mostly and 5% equal amounts.
23% of Welsh speakers use Welsh to correspond with utility companies that’s less than 5% of the adult population. That’s slightly more claiming to use Welsh than actually do according to Dwr Cymru.
Getting rather desperate there Dai !
Reduced to having a pop at everything except the real cause of it all…The gross over-concentration of the pointless Welsh language by a tiny arrogant minority.
Must do better.
I remember just a couple of years ago someone on a (sadly no more) Welsh forum stated that the number living in Wales who spoke ONLY Welsh on a day to day basis, was less than 50,000 (out of 3,020,000)
Not one Welsh language supporter could dispute those figures.
The truth will out !
It might not be by choice though! I occasionally have days when all I speak is Welsh, but it is largely very difficult because retail staff, friends who’ve moved to the country, randoms on the street that ask directions, customers at work etc etc all speak English. It is probably easier in more ‘Welsh’ areas of Wales further North.
Those statistics aren’t really anything significant to anything, IMO.
BTW, I’m watching the Tynged yr Iaith program on S4C at the moment. Would be of interest to some of you (if you can stand to listen to the language or course..)
It seems like this Head is in tune with the parents of children in EM schools.
Parents of primary age children are 51%-48% in favour of making Welsh language teaching optional.
Parents of secondary age children are 50%-46% in favour of making Welsh language teaching optional.
Looks like “Gogwatch” IS the voice of the silent majority.
Well it obviously isn’t, you need only look at how unpopular some of your posters are on the WalesOnline boards to see that.
I don’t think that I said anything about popularity Daniel, only majority.
It is quite something when you think about it; In Wales not one single politician from any political party would dare to say that Welsh Language, as a subject, should be a matter of parental choice.
Yet here we have a poll that seems to say that amongst non Welsh speakers, 78% of the population, only 44% agree with the policy of compulsory Welsh teaching in schools. In any other country a majority viewpoint would have at least one political party supporting that viewpoint.
You can’t use a poll of parents of EM children to extrapolate that the majority is against this policy, the sample group is obviously biased.
Infact the entire sample, parents and non parents, Welsh speaking and non welsh speaking taken together is against compulsory Welsh language teaching by 54% to 46%. The reason why I looked at the Non Welsh speaking parents is that they are most likely to be sending their children to EM schools and therefore most likely to feel that their children suffer from this policy. They are also the largest group. But why do you immediately suppose that they would be biassed against Welsh Language teaching? Iaith Pawb…no?
Not biased against the language just biased against the teaching of the language. If you made the choice to send your child to an English medium school you are probably less likely to value Welsh as a stand alone subject than the general population.
That rag!
XK8 might have been me, depending on how good your memory is.
this poll in 2009
http://www.yougov.co.uk/extranets/ygarchives/content/pdf/UniversityofAberystwyth_23-Oct-2009.pdf
page 19 shows 18% claim to be fluent speakers, that is 540,000. Out of them 8% regarded it as their 1st language,that is 43,200
extract from a parliamentary debate, a response by Nye Bevan –
the full debate is here.
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1946/oct/28/wales-and-monmouthshire-white-paper
Nye Bevan
Furthermore, I have always been very proud and very jealous of Welsh culture and Welsh institutions. I would remind my hon. Friends from North Wales and Mid-Wales that the culture and cultural institutions of Wales do not belong entirely to North Wales or Mid-Wales. There exists in the English-speaking populations of Monmouthshire. Glamorganshire, and some parts of Caernarvonshire, a culture as rich and profound as that which comes from the Welsh speaking people of North Wales. There is too great a tendency to identify Welsh culture with Welsh speaking. It has been my happy lot, in more than one place, to give encouragement and help to the English speaking Welshmen, and they have made very great contributions. What some of us are afraid of is that, if this psychosis is developed too far, we shall see in some of the English speaking parts of Wales a vast majority tyrannised over by a few Welsh speaking people in Cardiganshire. My hon. Friends must not assume that there is universal jubilation. There is, in some parts of Wales, a very considerable amount of anxiety. I suppose that one is entitled to regard Monmouthshire as a part of Wales. If you go round the valleys of Monmouthshire, you will find a great deal of disquiet about some of these new developments, because of the next stage of this slippery slope. There is first a Secretary of State for Wales, and because he is Secretary of State for Wales he must be a Welsh-speaking, Welsh-writing Welshman.
§Mr. S. O. Davies
Why not?
§Mr. Bevan
Certainly—speaking in terms of political ambition. But there is a large body of Welshmen who cannot speak Welsh, and they would immediately be disqualified. Some of our nationalist Friends are making an enclave. They are seeking a closed market, and making quite sure that, if there is to be a Secretary of State for Wales, he shall be Welsh-speaking and Welsh-writing. It would not stop there. It is one of our anxieties that if this thing develops further, all the civil servants appointed would have to be Welsh-speaking, Welsh-writing Welshmen. What is the demand? The demand is: How can they understand the peculiar difficulties, distinctions, and characteristics, the penumbra of North Wales and Mid-Wales, unless they can speak the language of the people? The result, of course, is that the whole of the Civil Service of Wales would be eventually provided from those small pockets of Welsh-speaking, Welsh-writing zealots, and the vast majority of Welshmen would be denied participation in the government of their country. That is exactly where some of these people are getting. I could give 402 instance after instance to show that. In fact, I could show Department after Department where it is absolutely impossible for Monmouthshire men to get appointments.
[An HON. MEMBER: "They could learn Welsh?"]
Exactly, they could learn Welsh. I know that every fanatic falls into exactly the same trap of saying “You can do it on my conditions.” That is a situation we are not going to allow to grow up, and in stating that I represent far more Welshmen than do my hon. Friends.
He is still correct of course, today we still hear complaints that a sec of state cannot speak welsh. At the labour leader election it was said by many that he /she had to speak welsh, in fact Edwina Hart was asked if she won would she learn it. I recall here answer was if she had time to learn a language there were a number that would be useful in her constituency.
Me I want the best person in a job not the most PC outlook ( that can be plaid cymru or politically correct).
Whatever measures are being taken in Welsh Education the outcomes haven’t been sufficient overall to increase the number of fluent Welsh speakers in Wales.
The BBC reports on the outcome of The Welsh Language Board’s final “status of the Language report” today. This report is to form the “Baseline” for the new Language Commissioner.
“The number of fluent Welsh speakers is falling by around 3,000 people a year, a new report suggests.”
I’m guessing (The report itself isn’t in the public domain yet) that the WLB has done follow up work on the 2004-2006 Usage study which found 317,000 fluent Welsh speakers in Wales. They now say that 17,000 have disappeared by death and migration since 2006. Since the population has increased, mostly due to net inward migration, the percentage of fluent Welsh speakers has also fallen in Wales.
When you consider the actual proportion of that 300,000 who are of working age and in employment we could be heading for a situation where the Fluent Welsh speaking Population is engaged primarily in employment to provide a service to…..themselves.
Thank you Nospin. It would be very interesting to see any classroom observations conducted by ESTYN of the concept that Wales is actually two regions and two cultures under one name Wales. Taught using this speech. I wonder how the teacher would be viewed??
It is time to take back the name Wales as an English word. Cymru does not mean the same thing as Wales.
[...] hesitate to raise this. An Englishman in Wales must tread carefully. But this Welsh headteacher has issues with the way the Welsh language is taught in English-medium schools. My own experience as a parent [...]
Gogtoo, regarding that report
You could say the WLB has had a history of questionable reports, so can we believe this one?
Did it have a conclusion saying it is time to face up to the truth the experiment has failed, I doubt it.
More likely it is their last shot before disappearing and by predicting doom for the language they give their successor a lever to say we need more action, more interference, more compulsion and more money.
Common sense has not been a trait shown by the language activists and WLB.
You are right that it is the WLB’s parting shot; its the “Baseline assessment” for the new regime…Welsh Language Commissioner and WAG Language department taking over WLB responsibilities.
As for dependability, if the Hywel Jones that wrote it is their chief statistician then these figures are as good as anyone could expect. I have communicated with him for years and he is a thorough professional. The figures are consistent with the 2004-2006 Welsh Language Use study which, to me, is the Bible of language research. It also sounds about right from my perspective… which is very different to the experience of people in the South.
The problem with the WLB has been the polls that they commission and the spin that they put on the results. These aren’t statistical research and Hywel Jones has nothing to do with them, in fact, when I made a complaint about the last time the WLB used a poll it was Hywel Jones himself that verified that the results were unsafe.
Link to the WLB Report:
http://www.byig-wlb.org.uk/English/publications/Publications/A%20statistical%20overview%20of%20the%20Welsh%20languagef2.pdf
I agree about Hywel Jones – he is not obviously trying to spin the figures. The report appears to be well written – almost readable for statistics – and it seems to be written almost with a tinge of sadness that he probably feels the Welsh language has peaked. He said much the same on BBC Wales Today at lunchtime.
It does nothing to determine what constitutes a Welsh speaker, quantitatively, and it makes several points about perceived competence in literacy tending to be higher than the reality. I would go further based on what I’ve seen in Gwynedd but, at least, he is being pragmatic.
E.g. – he states that agricultural workers are amongst the highest in Welsh literacy at 87% but I have seen FoIA figures which suggest that only 31% elect to receive Welsh communication even in Gwynedd. In Wrexham it is 1%! The disparity between the perceived (survey) reality and the FoIA reality of what people actually DO is so vast that survey stats on the Welsh language appear to be almost meaningless – even when they are not presented with a favourable spin. Weighting is the word they use.
For the Welsh language to be a life choice it has to be bi-literacy that counts not bi-lingualism. All the evidence suggests the social engineering experiment has failed more at the literacy level than the spoken level.
It is now time to draw a line in the sand. Enough is enough!
You said:
“It is now time to draw a line in the sand. Enough is enough!”
I’ve got a better idea. How about something a little more permanent, like a bloody great big wall built right across Wales at a point proportionate to the linguistic divide.
The Cymro can then live in their Cymraegified Cymru and the rest of us can just get on with our lives without being saddled with this Welsh language nonsense.
We can carry on speaking English and welcoming the World to do business with us on mutually acceptable terms, whilst the Cymro can lay down their silly conditions about doing business in Welsh and watch as International Business beats a hasty retreat from Cymru.
Just think about it! No more bi-lingual paperwork. No more S4C or Radio Cymru. No more Welsh Medium Schools. Public sector employment available to all at what ever grade. No more unnecessary translation industry providing a cushy number for otherwise unemployable Welsh speakers. No more bi-lingual road signs.
No more Welsh. Period!
They could even relieve us of the useless Assembly and take it with them. We can then revert to being a part of the UK and enjoy our rightful part of our prosperity without being forced to spend it on
a useless language and its hangers on.
Of course there’s always a downside.
There’d be absolutely no need for Gogwatch. Their job would be done and they can then get back to their knitting or whatever they do.
At least they could then accept their redundancy with our grateful thanks. In fact, once the wall is built we could award them the Welsh Order Of Merit and a handsome pension from public funds.
No award would be better deserved.
I prefer this award.
“For myself I would say that more than the interest and uses of the study of Welsh as an adminicle of English philology, more than the practical linguist’s desire to acquire a knowledge of Welsh for the enlargement of his experience, more even than the interest and worth of the literature, older and newer, that is preserved in it, these two things seem important: Welsh is of this soil, this island, the senior language of the men of Britain; and Welsh is beautiful.”
J.R.R. Tolkien
I think the Welsh public are becoming quite used to the language activists claiming the use of Welsh is rapidly increasing one week and then saying the language is in terminal decline the next…. depending of course on what they are after! They bend the stats both ways to suit their aims.
It will eventually be a case of ‘the boy who cried wolf’ as far as the public are concerned
I have looked at the research paper now. It is an excellent piece of Work. I was predicting a slight rise in the percentage of Welsh speakers at the 2011 census despite the continuous fall shown in the Welsh labour force survey. Hywel Jones has looked at three surveys and the migration figures and this is his analysis:-
” According to these projections, the number of Welsh speakers in Wales in 2011
is almost unchanged since 2001. The percentage who can speak Welsh could
be a little lower than in 2001. This document should have provided sufficient
background for these results to come as no surprise. After 2011, the
projections suggest that the number of speakers could increase more
substantially by 2021. All the same, because of in-migration, they do not show
an increase in the percentage of people who can speak Welsh over the same
period.”
It seems that only educational professionals are aware of this dire situation, we need to stand up and be counted! Many of the directors of education in Wales are probably in agreement, but are afraid to say so.
” According to these projections, the number of Welsh speakers in Wales in 2011 is almost unchanged since 2001.”
How was this ability measured on both occassions and who did it, or was it the usual self certification???
I haven’t read the methodology in this case. They may not have needed to do more research than previously. The Welsh language usage survey involved a high proportion of face to face interviews where the respondent’s Welsh was evaluated by the researcher….that’s why it was such a good survey. The Labour force survey is by phone and doorstep, self evaluated, and rebalanced to The Usage survey or another piece of research done comparing surveys.
There is no certainty about Language ability statements Nos. but if you think about it an Oxford Don might consider a Farm hand non fluent in English. The farm hand might disagree.
yes no doubt he would and say so in good old fashioned anglo saxon!!
Well, at least here’s some encouraging news.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2012/02/14/fluent-welsh-speakers-dwindling-by-3-000-a-year-91466-30327287/
Gogwatch.
I appreciate that my posting is a duplicate of the existing news item but it is intended to direct readers to the WalesOnLine comments wherein the desperate excuses of the language zealots may be seen.
Encouraging news indeed.
As long as surveys/projections/ and idiotic “Can you speak Welsh?” census questions are used, we will never get anywhere near the truth about the numbers.
One obvious flaw is that a large proportion of the ‘chosen’ sample, when asked “Can you speak Welsh” reply “Yes” simply because they know that a “Yes” reply will boost the figures. They answer in this way knowing full well that they cannot speak Welsh. They have in fact fallen for the Assembly/Welsh media publicity.
The Welsh language is dying on it’s feet. The realists among us know that only too well. The money wasted on all the many aspects of the Welsh language must be reined in and instead spent on worthwhile, and in many cases life-saving sections of government.
I agree with that. Not only should money be transferred away from the Welsh Language, roadsigns and government Welsh, English, forms, it should be done straight away.
“Nobody has yet answered the simple question – “why”? We compromise our children’s futures, alienate incomers, spend huge amounts on bilingual road signs and insist that all official documents are bilingual. Why?”
I’m glad the HM managed to get that final attack on the Welsh language. His/her main concern is not education. It appears his main concern is his/her dislike of the Welsh language. Alienating incomers? Road signs? Translation of documents? What are they to do with education?
Simple they suck up money like a sponge, which is one of the reasons why our funding per child £600 less than England.
It’s always been a contentious issue, not just how many are able to speak Welsh but how many DO speak Welsh and the further question how many “Live their lives through the medium of Welsh”. I’ve always contended that only fluent, first language Welsh speakers can be the people who rationally demand services “As of right” in Welsh and it is only these people who can claim that their “Human Rights” are infringed when they aren’t provided. I need hardly say that Language protest is a way of life and a career for many and as someone above points out these protectors of the Language swing between dire warnings of “The Language in Crisis” and bullish pronouncements that more provision needs to be made in Welsh because of the exploding uptake of the language.
It is a mistake to imagine that all Welsh speakers have a view of matters that is similar to language activists or, indeed that the vitriol that you encounter on forums is carried over into everyday life. It just isn’t. Although anecdote has limited validity I can tell you two stories about fluent Welsh speakers that I know.
One is a skilled man who over more than a decade has done work for me. Generally I labour for him and so the relationship is closer than you would imagine. Anyway, he is a Welsh speaker whose parents were both local Welsh speakers. He is married to a first language Welsh speaker whose parents were both local Welsh speakers. In fact, as he proudly told me, their whole family tree could be traced in one small area of North Gwynedd. He isn’t a well educated man having left school at 15 but he is easily as intelligent as me. Well read in the subjects that interest him and well travelled. One son is a teacher in a Bi-lingual secondary school. As it turns out he was unhappy that his (first Language Welsh speaking) son was educated through the medium of Welsh and he went to the school to protest. He felt that his son’s access to a wider body of information was being hampered by the narrow observance of Welsh Medium teaching. His son eventually decided NOT to train as a Welsh Medium teacher. Nothing will stop this family speaking Welsh through the generations. Welsh is their natural way of communicating with each other but you can see the pragmatism in their thinking. Incidentally one day Dai (not his name) had to contact Dwr Cymru and his wife had taken down the Welsh line contact number. Dai got through then became flustered and eventually said he didn’t have the paper work to hand after all. Afterwards he told me that the man on the other end was speaking a “Welsh like he’d never heard in his life before”. Not just south Wales Welsh but, as Dai said “Taught Welsh” not proper “Cofi Welsh”.
The point that I am making is that having Welsh central to your life is not the same as preferring services in Welsh. It may seem strange but it’s quite common that people bond with friends in Welsh but would feel strange talking to a stranger in anything but English. This is the only way that I can explain the disparity between the Number of first language Welsh speakers and the very low uptake of services in Welsh. One think is certain though, Welsh speakers are fiercly protective of the “Welsh speaking essential” and “Welsh speaking preferred” qualification for employment and I think that it is being used widely to ensure that Welsh Communities employ from within their own and exclude the wider, non Welsh speaking, World from their locale. The most obvious high value employment in the Fro Cymraeg? Welsh Medium Teaching!
There is of course a relatively simple way of significantly increasing the number of Welsh speakers using Welsh Language services such as those provided by Dwr Cymru and that is to include tuition in using those sevices as part of Welsh lessons in the school curiculum.
School leavers would then be familiar with the associated vocabulary, experienced and so be far more confident in choosing Welsh language options.
This is something that is more than likely to happen in the future and is already happening to an extent on an ad hoc basis.
However that aside the choices bilinguals make regarding which language they use and in what circumstances are not at all straight forward. At least according to the research undertaken ( this research goes on across the world of course and not just in Wales).
Jobs that specify “Welsh speaking essential” and “Welsh speaking preferred” will obviously result in Welsh speakers being employed.
Jobs that specify “Holding a full driving licence essential” and “Holding a full driving licence preferred” will similarly result in those with full driving licences being employed.
I interpret such job descriptions as identifying what skills make applicants suitable for the job rather than some of conspiracy to keep out non-Welsh speakers or non-drivers.
I have seriously considered leaving for England on many occasions – especially when I was told that Welsh is now judged to be as important as English in the judgement of performance of all schools – including English-medium schools.
Nobody has yet answered the simple question – “why”? We compromise our children’s futures, alienate incomers, spend huge amounts on bilingual road signs and insist that all official documents are bilingual. Why?
Simple answer which I would have though a headteacher would be able to grasp (I would argue worrying in terms of the education of children if cannot) — we live in Wales and whether you like it or not Wales has two official languages. Good citizenship ethics would direct you to learning both official languages – and ideally more non-official. Let’s also get out of this ‘rut’ of saying that schools are the only places where learning shoudl happen – if your child cannot count and say their tables in Welsh or English – then you teach them at home in Welsh or English, as appropriate; if reading is not up to scratch then you sit down with your child in the evening and read with them in English or Welsh. Some good points are made in the discussion above …. what we need is a discussion that is not just anti-Welsh language — as I fear much of Gogwatch is — but pro Wales of 2012 … which is whether we like it or not a bilingual Wales.
There also comes a time when it is bette to make a decisioon and in this headteacher’s case if one is so anti-Welsh Langauge why deal with the stress – I’d encourage you to move to England and avoid unecessary sleepless nights!
Reply to Medwen.
You will not win any friends to the Welsh language with your attitude.
Your reply to the headteacher boils down to ‘agree with me or go back to England’.
The problem is, however, that she was born in Wales.
Not everyone has either the aptitude or interest to learn what is, in essence, a ‘minority language’.
Unfortunately, for welsh enthusiasts, you are in the minority.
You are in no position to demand that the non-Welsh speaking majority share your passionate commitment.
Surely you would agree that if you are unhappy somewhere you do not sit and fester – you do something about it. After 18 years in London I missed the Welsh language and Welsh culture so I gave up my accountant’s job in the City and came back to Wales to be a school assistant teacher. I never said, and it certainly does not boil down to: agree with me or go to England. What I was saying was if you don’t enjoy living in Wales 2012 then don;t stress about it, don’t leave sleep over it – life is too short – move to somewhere with less of what you perceive as hassle! I’d say the same on all issues. Life is for living and enjoying not moaning!
it is a CARTEL!!!
Interesting viewpoint Medwen…… Welsh speakers must have the FREEDOM to speak Welsh throughout Wales in all circumstances. Non Welsh speakers must knuckle down and learn Welsh so that they can serve Welsh speakers desire for language freedom…..whilst there own freedom of language choice is subjugated.
Oh, and if you don’t like it……get out of the country!
I’ve heard it all Sssoooo many times!
“Oh, and if you don’t like it……get out of the country!
I’ve heard it all Sssoooo many times!”
I’m not surprised really as the only option Gogwatch types offer is a country where Welsh is one way or another, directly or indirectly, sooner or latter driven to extinction as a living language.
Perhaps we could make peace and meet in the middle.
A bilingual country perhaps, where people are able to speak and use both English and Welsh and choose when and where they speak and use these languages.
Hang on one group are already waiting at the middle.
Perhaps Gogwatch could get behind an effort to bring the other group over to join them.
POO….I think that I’ve got it!! You know those people who walk into shops in Gwynedd and ask for something in Welsh? And the shop assistant says “I’m sorry I don’t speak Welsh”. And the guy just insists on speaking in Welsh over and over again…..? And you know how, eventually, the shop girl just says “If you want something then I’m afraid that you are going to have to ask in English”? And then the Guy flounces out and contacts Cym.Gym. and the WLB and the Daily Post and they all say how terrible it is? And then the shop apologises and promises to train all its staff in Welsh and have all its signs in Welsh and the Ddraig Goch hanging outside…..and everything?
I think I can get past this in this bilingual country of ours. The shop girl’s opening gambit is “I’m sorry but I insist on living my life through the medium of English. I refuse to compromise on my human rights”
There we go! Both of them meeting in the middle! Both of them living by their own language in accordance with the recognised laws of Wales. No need to involve the new Language commissioner since she will just uphold the equality of both Welsh and English and the separate rights of two individuals to live in accordance with that equality.
Gogtoo – brilliant!
That is definitely how it should be!
If only…………
How about one of those people who walk into shops in Gwynedd and ask for something in Welsh gets served in Welsh.
How about you walking into shops in Gwynedd and asking for something in English and getting served in English
(Is this a rare event for you. Somehow even in a shop in deepest Gwynedd I imagine that it is not).
And when the shop girl goes into shops in Gwynedd she can choose to ask for something in English or Welsh and gets served in her preferred language.
That’s bilingualism and that’s equality.
And for the future, for Gwynedd read Wales.
Your idea of what equality is is deeply flawed. What happens if the shop girl insists on living her life through the medium of Welsh. Presumably you go home empty handed but at least you’ll have saved 5p on the carrier bag.
PointofOrder, you said:
“That’s bilingualism and that’s equality.
And for the future, for Gwynedd read Wales.”
I must confess that I nearly fell off my chair with laughter at your vision of the future.
Gwynedd?? Why on Earth would anyone go there to shop? We have every thing that we need nearby. We’ll manage without Gwynedd and without Welsh. Thanks all the same.
Come on Poo, you’re being too negative about my very viable scenario. Your scenario is fine by me by the way as long as it’s based on freedom to choose and no element of coercion, official or unofficial, is applied. The problem as I see it is, as Nospin is pointing out below, that there is an imbalance of power in inverse proportion to the beneficiaries involved.
Look at the BBC “Fate of the Language poll” 4% use Welsh exclusively in the Home and another 1% mostly. Think about this….home is where there is absolute freedom of choice in language preference. Apart from that 5% everyone in Wales is unconcerned or has a preference for using English when left free to do so. That 5% figure incidentally is so close to the actual uptake of Welsh Language services recorded by private utility companies, Banks etc. that it looks very likely to be accurate. What’s left? Well even amongst people who clearly can converse well in Welsh 5% speak half Welsh and Half English where they are free to do so (At home) and so the “Human rights” of that 5% can’t be considered to be infringed when a service isn’t provided in Welsh.
So this is the scenario in Wales 95% of the population want to speak English in their day to day lives or don’t care either way. 5% Want to live exclusively through the medium of Welsh and wouldn’t, by choice, use English. based on this situation YOUR recommendation is that everyone learns Welsh (whether they want to or not) in order to respect the rights of 5% of the population who, let’s be honest, left to their own devices would not speak English for the benefit of anyone else.
I detect a slight imbalance here.
“Your scenario is fine by me”
I do not want to see a Wales where it’s fine for a customer to be refused service because they don’t speak Welsh or don’t choose to speak Welsh.
That you are happy with such a scenario to exist speaks volumes about what you actually mean regarding the concepts of equality, human rights and freedom of choice you draw attention to in your arguments.
I didn’t say that either. And of course Gogwatch and the majority of its correspondents seem to have no problem with the fact that a sizeable minority of the Welsh population should be forced to fill in forms in their second language, deal with public services in their second language etc etc — that seems to be fine! It’s also very interesting for me as someone who;s lived for 18 yaers in lonodn to realsie that poeple living in England are far more symnpathetic to the language than English speaking Welsh people. Why not for one minute take a breather – think of this world’s diversity – is it not worth keeping? Your arguments would mean we do not conserve the Panda, we do not conserve small Amazonian tribes … let’s spend all this money that’s wasted on the World’s diversity to ensure supremacy. What a selfish imperialistic attitude … yes I am annoyed, not because I’m Welsh but because I’m part of a wonderful and diverse human race and because I respect other people’s culture and see them as treasures rather than millstones.
Reading this thread – and the rest of this site – is like entering the Tardis and being transported back in time.
This anti-Welsh language bigotry and the parochial arguments that ignore successful multi-cultural, multilingual societies around the world used to be much more common 30 years ago.
Then we were told that bilingual education stunted children’s intellectual development – although academic studies around the world show that the opposite is the case – and that bilingual road signs would send the traffic accident rate rocketing. All drivel then, as it is today.
I live in the middle of Splott, Cardiff. and don’t hear the kind of anti-Welsh rubbish I read on this thread. We have a thriving Welsh-medium junior school here.
About 40 per cent of school-children in Wales aged 5-15 now speak Welsh. Consider that, bigots, and weep.
I also note the name of this website – “Gogwatch”. Why have a name aimed at the people of north Wales? The term “Gog” is short for “Gogledd” (north), and is usually used to convey a slightly derogatory attitude towards north Wales people (whether Welsh speakers or not).
Why such determination to be offensive to a particular region of Wales?
I suspect that the choice of title flows at least in part from ignorance – from the belief that “North Wales” is the mostly Welsh-speaking area and the South is mainly Welsh-speaking.
In fact, the linguistic pattern is far more an East-West one. South west Wales (except southern Pembrokeshire) is far more Welsh-speaking than the north-east (except for the small Wrexham coalfield).
I suggest the name of this site be changed to Gorlwatch (from Gorllewin = west) or the suchlike. Then the bigotry will more accuratey aimed.
Medwen, can I take issue with you on a small but important point? Like many others, you make two assertions and claim they amount to the same thing viz: that Wales has two official languages – true – and that Wales is ‘a bilingual’ country – not, I think, true.
Wouldn’t a truly bilingual country be one in which the majority of the population is competent in two languages? If so, this is very far from being the case in Wales. Here, everyone can speak English while a minority can speak both English and Welsh. The WAG could make a law stating that Wales has any number of ‘official’ languages but that would not make Wales bi or multi-lingual. By describing the current situation as ‘bilingualism’, you seem to me to be stating an ambition or an aspiration, not decribing the reality.
Confusing the terms of the debate won’t change the reality however much we might wish it. I believe some philosophers might disagree with me – I wait to be corrected.
Thank you for your e-mail. I actually do appreciate the difference and accept that I was not clear in my differentiation. WAG aim for a bilingual nation, and I strive and work for that .. we are on our way but I accept not there yet!
Thank you
I don’t want to be bi-lingual – certainly not in Welsh anyway. Neither do many of my friends. Nobody has ever asked us.
You do your bi-lingual thing, or even live your whole lives in Welsh for all I care, but leave us alone.
Otherwise it’s getting to the point where we’re not going to take this social engineering and abuse of our freedoms lying down for much longer. The wheel doesn’t look to be very far from turning full circle.
there may be two languages but I don’t think there are two official languages, welsh is protected and favoured in many instances by law English isn’t, which is why some areas can getaway with not teaching in English for the parents that want it.
It is also why transport to distant WM is paid for that to EM is not.
The languages are not equal in law intentionally, during the scrutiny stage of the new language bill Rhodri pointed out to Alan Ffred that the wording in one part would have meant welsh enclaves having to support EM, and asked was that what he intended, obviously not because the draft was amended.
Read the Final version of the Welsh Language Act 2011 after the lateste ammendments! It’ll now hold in a Court of law that it is official.
Swansea Teacher – just to reassure you, parents are aware of this too.
If a few people stand up and object, then many others may well do likewise – that is why “Parents For Choice” was formed, to give people a way to register their dissatisfaction with the way Welsh education policy is headed, as part of a group.
Obviously, we can’t change peoples attitudes, but we can call for a change in policy – if we have enough support.
Please see our Mission Statement on this site and forward it to anyone you think might be interested, or alternatively, mail us and we’ll forward a copy to you:
parentsforchoicewales@gmail.com
Robbo 2 – The official answer to your question is here:
http://www.gogwatch.com/2011/05/04/welsh-language-policy-making-your-vote-count/
about halfway down the page. Search for Magog on the page.
I imagine it went something like this
Posters point out that “Gogwatch” is not a particularly nice term and suggests the site is rather prejudiced.
Gogwatch – Oh heck how do we get out of that one.
Google “gog” to see if we can claim there’s an alternative explanation
First up GOG.Com video games – no that’s no good
Second up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog – briliant lots of options first one Gog and Magog
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_and_Magog
whew!
If you had chosen to claim that Gogwatch was named after Hungarian triathlete Aniko Gog you wouldn’t have done any worse than trying to claim the Gog in Gogwatch refers to the Gog and Magog duo.
Robbo 2 – “Then we were told that bilingual education stunted children’s intellectual development – although academic studies around the world show that the opposite is the case”
Can you point out the research to which you are referring?
For the past 40 years cognitive neuroscientist Ellen Bialystok has studied the effects of knowing two languages on the mind.
she’s found that people who are bilingual are “using a different kind of network… Their whole brain appears to rewire because of bilingualism.” And, that rewiring gives bilinguals an advantage.
http://www.good.is/post/being-bilingual-is-good-for-your-brain/
According to several different studies, command of two or more languages bolsters the ability to focus in the face of distraction, decide between competing alternatives, and disregard irrelevant information
Bilinguals also appear to be better at learning new languages than monolinguals.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/08/07/why-it-s-smart-to-be-bilingual.html
neuroscience researchers are increasingly coming to a consensus that bilingualism has many positive consequences for the brain.
• Bilingual children are more effective at multi-tasking.
• Adults who speak more than one language do a better job prioritizing information in potentially confusing situations.
• Being bilingual helps ward off early symptoms of Alzheimer’s disease in the elderly.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/26/health/la-he-bilingual-brain-20110227
So let children choose a language.
Again modded for mentioning a certain Labour politician with the initials **. You will never get into the mainstream media if you control posts in this biased and unprincipled manner.
We’re trying to keep the debate from entering into personal attacks on indviduals – be they other posters, politicians or whoever.
If that person is a politician, challenge their work by all means if it is on topic but please refrain from making it personal.
We have received comments about Conservative, Labour, Liberal and Plaid Cymru politicians that we have not published because we felt the comments were either personal, not on topic or just plain not nice.
This site has no connection with the individual you keep posting about, nor the political party that individual is a member of, or with any other political party.
On that Gogwatch you are very good and I think correct
They are not correct when my original comment was on one of the politician’s failings in office that was widely reported in the mainstream media, it wasn’t a personal attack. Their censorship of perfectly valid posts that go against their thinking is laughable and not becoming of a serious political blog.
I refer you to our above earlier answer.
Gogwatch you can’t deny me the chance to substantiate my claims, its fundamentally unfair and no way to run a blog.
Ellen Bialystok is actually against compulsory bilingual education remember. Her research was carried out with naturally bilingual people; that is people who learned to use two languages BEFORE school age. So the advantage that is spoken of is enjoyed by about 5% of the Welsh population.
“Dr Ellen Bialystok of York University in Canada, (misprinted in the leaflet as Bialystak) in support of its claim that children who speak two languages “are more versatile and creative, more intellectually advanced at four to five, and better at retaining abilities into old age”.
That is indeed what Dr Bialystok claims, but she is talking about children bilingual from an early age, those who have learned two languages in the home, while the Welsh Language Board is claiming these benefits for children who only begin Welsh at school. Here is what Dr Bialystok says about that: “The overwhelming effect of bilingualism in the home is positive … The implications for school are more complex. Children’s success in school is strongly dependent on their proficiency in the language of instruction, a relationship that holds for important linguistic abilities (eg learning to read) non-verbal computational subjects (eg mathematics) and content-based curricula (eg social studies).”
All she suggests here is that schools need to teach language effectively so that children can benefit from the “overwhelming positive benefit of bilingualism”.
“The evidence for the overwhelming positive benefit of bilingualism, together with evidence that bilingual children are not cognitively handicapped, indicates an important role for schools in providing a means for these children to build up their language skills in the school language so that they can be full participants in the classroom and reap the most positive benefit from their educational experience.”
http://www.child-encyclopedia.com/documents/BialystokANGxp_rev.pdf
“teach language effectively” – so be curtailing English in EM schools in order to develop coerced bilingualism is an ineffective teachinhg strategy. Unless you condone corporal punishment as a means by which behaviour can be modified.
Let the children choose.
For more from Prof. Bialystok
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/science/31conversation.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/jun/12/ellen-bialystok-bilingual-brains-more-healthy
Do you have to be bilingual from a young age to experience cognitive and health-related benefits?
E Bialystok
It’s very hard to know. My view is that late-life language learning is probably benefial, not because of bilingualism but because learning a language is a stimulating mental activity and a good way to exercise your brain.
Regarding her being against “compulsory bilingual education” please provide the reference for this as the context of that part statement is all important given your views and motives regarding Welsh language education.
Perhaps given the very significant life long advantages children get from being bilingual from a young age the compulsion should be on parents to sent or accompany their children to Welsh medium nursery schools /groups as a bare minimum.
OK, Robbo 2, you get the first prize.
I’ve been waiting to see how long it was before some Welsh language zealot or other resorted to the old cliched insult of describing those who disagree with them as bigots.
This site seems to get along nicely without such nastiness and then you turn up with this:
“Consider that, bigots, and weep.” and from your next posting “I suggest the name of this site be changed to Gorlwatch (from Gorllewin = west) or the suchlike.Then the bigotry will more accuratey aimed.”.
N-i-i-i-i-ice! So predictable and typical of the true language zealot. Well done! The ‘B’ word does it every time.
These words of yours say so much:
“I live in the middle of Splott, Cardiff. and don’t hear the kind of anti-Welsh rubbish I read on this thread. We have a thriving Welsh-medium junior school here.”
For those unaware, Robbo 2 actually lives in the area always known by we true Splottites as Upper Splot (rhymes with toe). The original terraces of rented property in Lower Splott were demolished years ago.
Robbo 2 lives in an area of predominantly privately owned property some of which are occupied by Welsh speaking ‘incomers’ (not my favourite word) many of whom work in the media or Assembly. Cardiffians frequently refer to it as the Poor Man’s Pontcanna (where the better paid Media and Assembly people live).
Of course he fails to note that despite the Welsh school, there is barely a Welsh word heard outside of the school. I’m sure that he’ll also confirm the rarity of a non-white face, in the school, and an insignificant amount of free school meals. He also fails to note that right next door to Splott is Tremorfa (I’ll bet that he’d love to swap names), mainly Council Houses, where Welsh would also be never heard. Tremorfa’s schools, by the way, will have plenty of non-white faces in attendance and many free school meals will be provided.
These notes are provided in the interests of the truth just in case Robbo 2′s trying to portray Cardiff as a hot-bed of Welsh learning. Take it from me, it’s not, but we’ve always been known as tolerant folk.
Scudder makes a point that is little recognised. Bristol University did some research (in England) on the effect that the ability to choose a primary school had and whether this resulted in division of society along socio-economic lines. They concluded that the educated middle class were successful to a large extent is sending their children to schools with good academic credentials whereas poorer families chose or were restricted to close proximity schools. In England the divisive effect was minimised because “Good” schools were quickly oversubscribed.
Cardiff may be a Tolerant society but one thing stands out a mile; “Choice” of school is completely unfettered by any limitation on Welsh Medium places because new WM schools are provided on demand. The result is that the more affluent middle classes can (if they wish) use Welsh Medium schools to make sure that their children don’t have to be educated alongside children from poor families and ethnic minority homes.
I don’t think that it is unreasonable to say that social cohesion in Cardiff will be undermined in the long term by the unlimited growth of WM schooling.
“middle classes can (if they wish) use Welsh Medium schools to make sure that their children don’t have to be educated alongside children from poor families and ethnic minority homes”
I have first hand experience of Welsh Medium education in Cardiff, and what you are saying is absolute nonesense.
I also want to point out that both current Welsh Medium socondary schools are situated in old premises vacated by English Medium schools that were moved to brand new facilities.
Poo; I think that Ellen Bialystok makes a clear distinction between the Cognitive benefits of Bilingualism gained and reinforced in the home and LEARNED IN SCHOOL second language acquisition. She corresponded with me on the subject some years ago, making the point that the Immersion schools that she based her research on had only monolingual children in them and, because of their popularity, they were sought after schools.
She had no experience of schools where pupils from both L1 and L2 languages were taught side by side in the same classroom and certainly had no notion of “Compulsory” Immersion schooling as operated in Ynys Mon and Gwynedd. One reason why compulsory “Immersion” teaching is undesirable is that it is no longer Immersion but “Submersion” teaching….where the L1 of English speakers is given less respect than the language being taught; Welsh. Such attitudes to native English speakers can be seen in this Forum.
Ellen Bialystok (and I incidentally) values second language acquisition in later life and thinks that there are benefits. I agree. I also think that second language acquisition isn’t unique in this respect and that the benefits of second language acquisition are minimal unless that second language is used consistently alongside the first language. In other words cognitive benefits from learning a musical instrument (for instance) are life long if you continue to play but minimal if you never play the instrument after the age of 15. Not zero though I would think.
The benefits of teaching Welsh second language to unresponsive pupils is minimal. The same thing is true of teaching French on a compulsory basis. Where the subject language is chosen (or where Welsh Immersion schooling is chosen) on the other hand, then there, reasonably, you can expect engagement to be higher and benefits higher too. It is my personal belief that WM immersion schooling in Cardiff (say) is working better than Immersion schooling in Ynys Mon for the simple reason that parents have an opt out or opt in choice. I think that it is also the case that teachers in Cardiff MUST be sensitive to the English Language backgrounds of pupils. In Ynys Mon there is no such sensitivity. In Cardiff if a teacher alienated English speaking parents the school would empty; in Ynys Mon pupils with English L1 can be treated as second class with impunity…there is nowhere else for them to go!
The problem with Welsh language arguments in Wales is that they have so much to do with Nationalism and exclusion. This is particularly true in the Fro Cymraeg. Take a look at the TES Cymru forum; you can see that not being able to speak Welsh is blocking teachers from England from coming to Wales. How foolish is this? If you have the teachers produced by a population of 53 million people to choose from alongside the teachers produced by 3 million people why would you put artificial barriers infront of wider choice? This insularity, supported by the myth of bilingualism, will be the ruin of Wales’ education system.
Now I have pointed out in the past that bilingual teaching in Wales has done NOTHING to make the nation tri-lingual. Rather the opposite, particularly in WM schools, which have lower uptake of MFLs. But even the acquisition of English seems to be inhibited in WM schools since they have lower GCSE scores in comparison to EM schools at the same FSM benchmarks (they also have lower maths scores!). There is one Adult Welsh Literacy study incidentally which shows little difference between the English skills of Welsh first language speakers and Monoglot English Language speakers….except in one respect. People who have Welsh as a first Language in the home EXCLUSIVELY have lower English Language capability than monoglot English speakers. And here you have the problem. The cognitive benefits of bilingualism are enjoyed by children in a household that uses BOTH languages equally. To be an exclusive Welsh speaker, going to a Welsh medium school, is to negate much of the benefits of bilingualism.
So, basically the following is your conclusion and not her words.
“Ellen Bialystok is actually against compulsory bilingual education”
In my opinion, none of what you’ve said above disproves that a bilingual education has an “overwhelming positive” effect, and that “schools providing a means for these children to build up their language skills” is important.
So, basically the following is your conclusion and not her words.
“Ellen Bialystok is actually against compulsory bilingual education”
It’s a fair paraphrase of Prof. Bialystok’s position.
Perhaps you could contact her again to confirm that she supports your statement.
Again, this would still not disprove her findings that bilingualism provides “overwhelming positive” benefits, in her own words.
So why is this cognitive benefit that you seem to admire sooooo helpful to the pupils in Wales?
I can’t find any evidence of this cognitive development being of any use to anything other than promoting the concept of Wales as a country.
Your cognitive benefit argument is flawed. Since bilinguals do not do anything with their cognitive benefit in Wales do they?
Where are all the engineers, innovators and entrepreneurs? If congnitive benefit was the aim we should be seeing a whole host of these gifted communicators in all fields.
Where are they? I’ll posit they are all in public service jobs and the senedd being a drain on the rest of the Welsh people.
Wales is bicultural not bilingual.
This thread has moved in a number of directions – unfortunately the original point has been lost.
Comparisons with other “bilingual” settings are, I think, irrelevant here. All quoted involve real, living and above all useful languages that can be used in a range of contexts both within and outside those countries. Welsh is only spoken by, at best, a fifth of the population of Wales itself. It is useless outside of Wales (arguably inside also). If we really wish to promote bilingualism why not a useful language such as French or German?
Speaking welsh is seen as important by those who formulate national priorities; I have not yet heard a plausible reason for the huge importance (and expense) placed upon the promotion of welsh.
Any offers?
This simply comes down to whether you value the welsh language or not.
I value the welsh language, you don’t.
There’s no point arguing over how useless you think it is in comparison to other more widely spoken languages.
The fact is that it is a language that is not dead, some want it dead, some don’t.
Finding a solid argument against supporting it’s survival is your greatest difficulty.
The fact you think french or german would be more useful is besides the point. All children in wales will have the opportunity to learn a third language in school, and acquiring further languages from a bilingual possition is greater than from a monolingual possition.
I’m sure this will be disputed, and I would welcome any research that proves bilingualism hampers a persons ability to learn more languages.
What it comes down to is whether you want the welsh language to dissapear or not.
Finding a solid argument….value…..want it to disappear….
Still no plausible reason!
It comes down to whether you are afraid of giving children real choice. It comes down to whether you believe in providing the best education to pupils or not. It comes down to individual learing pathways.
You appear not to care about the children and only care about your culture/language.
I care about the children.
Wales is bicultural not bilingual
“I have first hand experience of Welsh Medium education in Cardiff, and what you are saying is absolute nonesense.”
In what sense is what I said “absolute nonsense”? I would have thought it was self evident that if middle class parents want to have their children mix with fewer pupils from poor backgrounds and fewer pupils of ethnic minority origins then Welsh Medium schools are the way to go. It would be very difficult to establish motivation amongst parents on such a sensitive issue. I would think that if parents were asked if they were using WM schools to avoid ethnic minorities and “Rough” kids every one would deny it but I bet if you asked whether they, personally, knew of a parent that thought like that they would say “yes”. Such is human nature.
This says more about the way you think.
Rhen Lembeau – “All she suggests here is that schools need to teach language effectively so that children can benefit from the “overwhelming positive benefit of bilingualism”.”
I don’t think you have read this properly – or looked at much of her other research.
Firstly, it’s pretty much all in the context of the US/Canada system, where there has been concern among already bilingual groups that they would be disadvantaged in education simply through their bilingualism – but this is where the language of instruction is generally one which they already speak, and are surrounded by as a majority language anyway. The analogue here would be if parents who speak Welsh to their children in the home were anxious about their children being educated in English. Obviously not such a useful analogy for this discussion.
Secondly, this article is reporting the experience of *already* bilingual children in education, not about children acquiring a language from scratch *through* education.
Thirdly, neither you, nor the WAG (who seem to always cite Ellen as their go-to girl) mention the caveats of bilingualism that also come as part of her research – lower lexical retrieval levels in all acquired languages, more limited vocabulary in all acquired languages, and the crucial issue here (from the doc you yourself cite):
“Children’s success in school is strongly dependent on their proficiency in the language of instruction, a relationship that holds for important linguistic activities (e.g. learning to read), non-verbal computational subjects (e.g. mathematics), and content- based curricula (e.g. social studies). In all these cases, children must be skilled in the forms and meanings of the school language and be competent readers of that language. Bilingual children may not be at the same level as their monolingual peers, and second-language learners for whom English or French is not their home language may have not built up adequate skills in the instructional language to succeed in schools.”
Now, this research is about children who are trying to learn through a language with which they are probably already at least partly familiar, and surrounded by every day – the medium of life around them. We, however, are talking about children who may barely encounter Welsh outside school, and yet are being forced to learn through it.
Imagine needing to take a course in something that is important to your life chances (say for work) – and consider whether you would choose to take the course offered through a language you already speak, or an alternative course which is taught through a language that you have learn simultaneously.
Pointoforder:
(E Bialystok) “My view is that late-life language learning is probably benefial, not because of bilingualism but because learning a language is a stimulating mental activity and a good way to exercise your brain.”
Yes. She’s saying mental exercise is good for you, in later life as well as early life. Any kind of mental exercise. What a revelation.
And somewhat missing the point that you can be bilingual, indeed learn several languages, without being forced to learn through a second/third language.
I don’t think you read this properly;
All she suggests is that schools need to teach language effectively so that children can benefit from the “overwhelming positive benefit of bilingualism”.
“The evidence for the overwhelming positive benefit of bilingualism, together with evidence that bilingual children are not cognitively handicapped, indicates an important role for schools in providing a means for these children to build up their language skills in the school language so that they can be full participants in the classroom and reap the most positive benefit from their educational experience.”
http://www.child-encyclopedia.com/documents/BialystokANGxp_rev.pdf
Rhen Lembeau – All she suggests is that schools need to teach language effectively so that children can benefit from the “overwhelming positive benefit of bilingualism”.
Ignoring the point again that she is talking predominantly about children who are already bilingual in the home.
And again, leaving out the fact that she points out disadvantages to bilingualism. I think it is significant that you and the WAG both do this repeatedly. That’s called propaganda, not research. Put those disadvantage on the front page of any press releases instead of the irrelevant (slightly ridiculous) stuff about Altzheimers Disease. At least then parents who still have a choice would be making a fair one.
Re-read this doc, and her other research, with an open mind instead of one blinded by a pre-existing agenda. This is why we live in a country where the blind lead the blind so easily.
Rhen; If your argument is that Welsh Medium Education in Cardiff doesn’t divide rich from poor and black from white you are on very dodgy ground. I’ve just done the maths so that you don’t have to:-
EM SECONDARY SCHOOLS;
PUPILS….FSM……ETHNIC…….SEN
18385……21%……24%………22%
WM SECONDARY SCHOOLS;
PUPILS…..FSM…..ETHNIC……..SEN
2289…….8%…….7%………..18%
EM PRIMARY SCHOOLS;
PUPILS……FSM….ETHNIC……..SEN
24626…….23%…..23%……….20%
WM PRIMARY SCHOOLS;
PUPILS…….FSM….ETHNIC……..SEN
4213……….10%….6%………..14%
ALL PUPIL NUMBERS ARE FULL TIME EQUIVALENT. ALL FSM ARE SINGLE YEAR WHOLE SCHOOL (NOT STATUTORY AGE OR THREE YEAR AVERAGE).
No segregation in Cardiff schools, oh deary me no!
You’re using the percentage of children who have free school meals or from an ethnic minority background to claim that parents who choose welsh medium education are doing so on a racist/predjudice basis?
You believe people choose welsh education on the basis that there are 13% less pupil who recieve free school meals and 17% less pupils who are from ethnic minorities?
That is some accusation to put out.
The fact is, pupils attending welsh medium schools are attending to be taught through the medium of welsh.
This is a desperate angle to take against welsh medium education, and I think you should be much more careful when making such assertions.
A new low has been reached here on gogwatch.
1. Being bilingual is overwhelmingly a good thing for children and carries benefits throughout life
2. The earlier bilingualism is achieved the better.
3.The only realistic language combination for developing and using bilingualism in Wales is English and Welsh. Which, ethnic minority groups aside, is one more combination than the the vast majority of the rest of the UK has.
Ultimately Gogwatch has to prove all three are false if it wants to achieve it’s aims.
Finland has the best education system in the world and manages to achieve that with a population of 5.4 million.
And GOGTOO how about contacting Ellen Bialystok and inviting her to have a look at Gogwatch. I’m sure it will be an experience for her.
Gogwatch, nor anybody else, has to disprove any of that, or anything else, because it has ZERO impact on our freedom to choose. End of!
Freedom of choice to deny children (sometimes one’s own children) a lifetime’s advantage.
You’ll have to make an extraordinary case to convince people that that’s the right choice.
From what I’ve read on this forum no-one has even begun to do that.
PointofOrder – “Freedom of choice to deny children (sometimes one’s own children) a lifetime’s advantage. You’ll have to make an extraordinary case to convince people that that’s the right choice. From what I’ve read on this forum no-one has even begun to do that.”
Personally, I didn’t have to make any case at all with a) other parents I have talked to about this, and b) my own child.
The policies you support by themselves put paid to any trust they might have had that those policies were for their benefit.
You are obviously coming at this from an ideological angle above all else, so your natural assumption seems to be that everyone else is too. Perhaps if you were in my position, with a child who has suffered under a system, you would think differently – or perhaps not. But the onus is on *you* to tell *me* why I shouldn’t have the choice to remove my child from that toxic environment.
By the way, I am completely aware that no case I could possibly make, even if I had positive proof that Cymraeg caused childhood cancer, would ever change your position.
There will now be a pause while I wait for you to accuse me of suggesting the above.
The point is that pretty much everyone knows that you cannot make a case against the benefits of bilingualism.
In the end shouldn’t your choice come second to the interests of your children.
Actually I don’t think many people do believe academics with a vested interest in securing a lifetime of research grants to keep themselves in the style, and sometimes the status within their own clique, to which they have become accustomed.
Or the output of journalists who retail cherry-picked extracts from press releases either because they are convenient fodder for their own agenda, or because they are convenient fodder for lazy cut-n-paste journalism – period.
Your own ability to analyse data seems to suggest that the bi-lingual advantage has failed!
In fairness to Cardiff, I’ve just done the maths for Swansea….Exactly the same pattern; Rich and poor, black and white neatly segregated by the medium of education.
Everyone’s equal in Wales; but some are…….
Doesn’t address 1,2,or 3
If accurate it’s data to support the establishment of more WM schools.
More WM schools = less inequality ( the way you measure it)
so you want a choice for your children to have EM and believe you me in the 2 counties (swansea and cardiff)that you suggest is full of racist parents there are 2 WM secondary schools (Gwyr and Bryntawe) (soon to be 3 in cardiff – Glantaf, Plasmawr and Bro Edern) Whereas there is an ample choice of EM secondaries. I shan’t list them all as it would take a good while. So what is the issue you have with these two areas.
Is it ok for you to want EM for your children but NOT ok for WM schooling to be provided for parents who want WM for their children. After all don’t you want to segregate your children away from the Welsh language and welsh speakers? Arent you therefore being ‘predjudiced’too?
No-one is denying the right to parents who want WM education, as has been pointed out many times mrss. It’s a shame the rights of those seeking EM education are not equally respected (and please don’t tell that they are, not unless you live in my county and know the policy of my local schools)
My problem with this site is there are no names-not one person of note putting their name to an article-ok you could argue its a grass roots job-but again why the reluctance to put a face to an opinion?
Its not like your going to get assassinated or anything-this is Wales we dont do that sort of thing
Thanks for the clear and unquestionable figures, Gogtoo, which support my point.
This unpalatable truth is strikingly confirmed by the frothing denials put forwards by the detractors.
Perhaps they should dismiss these facts as being no more than the biggest coincidence of the century.
Personally the burden of proof is with the language zealots.
1. Why is the removal of choice from education a positive educational model for Welsh pupils.
Finland have chosen to adopt bilingualism using the 3000 people rule at a municipal level. So there is bilingualism IF PEOPLE CHOOSE IT!
It appears they have a good system because they provide choice. So pupils are not held back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swedish-speaking_and_bilingual_municipalities_of_Finland
What are you language zealots afraid of?
The difference between Finland and it’s use of Swedish in schools and the use of Welsh in schools in Wales is clear.
Swedish is not on a list of endangered languages, while Welsh is.
Catalan is on the same list as Welsh. If live in, or move to Catalunia your child has to learn Catalan.
Equally, if you live in or move to the Basque region (of Spain), the same thing applies between ages 12-16.
You should also remember that they spend £46 million more on promoting the Basque language in Spain.
However, the Basque region straddles France and Spain, and both countries treat the language very differently.
I’m quite miffed that the authenticity of my figures was questioned by Poo above. However I’m quite used to it. It’s almost as if Wales wants to disprove the old adage “You Can’t fool all of the people all of the time”.
However, I started looking at the break down of social cohesion as a result of a two language school system some time ago after reading a report in 2001 which said:-
“In the sixteen LEAs which had, in
1999/2000, both English and Welsh
medium schools, fifteen had a greater
percentage of pupils entitled to free
school meals in the English medium
schools than in the Welsh medium
schools. This difference was as large as
eleven per cent in some LEAs.”
At that time the ratio was 12.2% FSMs in WM schools 19% in EM schools. Since then the gap has widened across Wales. I haven’t checked whether there is a single WM school in Wales that has a higher FSM average than the EM school average in the same County but I haven’t come across one case yet. I suspect that Torfaen may have a case.
Ther are a few outraged comments above which I will consider briefly. Not all countries are wedded to the Idea that Bilingualism is an overwhelming boon. Latvia has just rejected having Russian as an official second language despite having one third of the population who are ethnic Russians. The reason why is obvious….NATIONALISM. Latvia is newly independent and has no stomach to welcome the language of the previous occupation.
Finland, in common with Norway, tried to eradicate the Sami language through education for a long time but now accept Sami first langauge schools. However one political party is agitating to remove Swedish as a language of education (There are 6% Swedish first language speakers in Finland in a samll geographical area) Why? NATIONALISM. Sweden were former occupiers of Finland.
What I’m saying is this; the Welsh Language fundamentalists are happy to use international research on bilingualism to support their case in South Wales but behave like Latvian and Finnish Nationalists in the Fro Cymraeg to, as far as possible, prevent English people from either settling there or thriving there. They do it in exactly the way that other countries have done in the past… by making English in education the language of second class citizens .
Actually I’m not bothered with your figures.
The minutiea you are so proud of can easily be used to support the spread, increase and improvement of WM education as well as pushing for it’s reduction.
As bilingualism is a good thing why do you assume your data would only be used to reduce and restrict the development of it.
For a comparison if you extracted data that showed that children that receive free school meals and children from ethnic minorities are more likely to go to schools that have poor PE and sports facilities. Which is quite likely true.
Do you think that the result of your revelation would be reduced PE and sport faciities for children at schools that do have those facilties.
In the comparison your challenge would be to demonstrate that Physical excerside is bad.
In reality your challenge is to demonstrate that bilingualism is bad.
The Fro Cymraeg is almost a myth now – it’s as good as dead outside the formal confines of the Ysgols and controlled work-places!
The Welsh language Taliban in Gwynedd Council can barely keep the kids’ interest in Welsh alive in the Ysgols let alone when they escape from their clutches back into the real world.
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/ADNPwyllgorau/2010/Is-Bwyllgor%20Iaith/2010-10-12/english/06_02_Appendix%201.pdf
“2. Background
The background to this survey was the findings of the Linguistic Impact Assessment Report of the Gwynedd School Reorganisation Scheme held in 2008. One of the main findings of this assessment was the lack of use children made of the Welsh language outside formal structured periods in school, such as during breaks, around the school premises and at lunchtime – and as a result, the findings demanded further attention and action. This is reinforced in Iaith Pawb: A National Action Plan for a Bilingual Wales (2003) which states that : A language confined to the education sector is not a living language.”
Look at the results on page 13 – the further away from the Ysgol classroom they go the less Welsh is used. No surprise at all to anybody who lives in Gwynedd or Anglesey where it is perfectly normal to hear 8+ year olds speaking English in the street to their ‘Welsh speaking’ parents.
In Arfon only 56% of the kids filled in the questionnaire in Welsh! This leaves a VERY small number of kids in Dwyfor-Meirionnydd who are effectively still in the Fro Cymraeg category – and that is the poorest Constituency in the UK. Yes, there are a few other small areas dotted, mainly, around West Wales but the numbers are small.
This hasn’t stopped Gwynedd Council wasting more of their hard pressed Council Tax payers’ money on targeting further unnecessary expense towards trying to rectify their increasing failure to socially engineer the current generation.
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/ADNPwyllgorau/2010/Is-Bwyllgor%20Iaith/2010-10-12/english/06_03_Appendix%202.pdf
“the findings demanded further attention and action.”
We know what that means – even more unsolicited interference and social engineering, and arguably more resentment stored up for the future.
How long can this go on before the worm turns?
As for the histrionic hyperbole of Rhen Lembeau above:-
“You’re using the percentage of children who have free school meals or from an ethnic minority background to claim that parents who choose welsh medium education are doing so on a racist/predjudice basis?”
And;
“A new low has been reached here on gogwatch.”
Firstly, I’m not Gogwatch and they aren’t anything to do with me. It’s a FORUM.
Secondly, You can’t invent a scenario, attribute it to me and then claim that it is a “New Low”. It was you, Rhen, who extrapolated this:
” In what sense is what I said “absolute nonsense”? I would have thought it was self evident that if middle class parents want to have their children mix with fewer pupils from poor backgrounds and fewer pupils of ethnic minority origins then Welsh Medium schools are the way to go”
To mean that I claim that ALL parents are racist bigots who send their children to Welsh medium schools in Cardiff or elsewhere. All you did was put forward a clearly false interpretation so that you could parade your tedious faux outrage.
(1)Parents who are Welsh speaking send their children to WM schools in Cardiff.
(2)Families where One parent is Fluent in Welsh send their children…..
(3)Parents who would like their children to speak Welsh send….
(4) Parents who think that second language acquisition is a benefit in itself (They would send their child to a French Immersion school if it existed in Cardiff) send….
(5) Parents who don’t care if their child learns Welsh but think that WM schools provide a better education than local EM schools send…
(6)Parents whose local EM school has a considerable presence of kids from deprived backgrounds and ethnic minorities or a sudden influx of traveller children ALSO CHOOSE TO SEND THEIR CHILDREN TO WM SCHOOLS.
There is nothing terrible in what I’m saying. It happens all over the world what is different in Wales is that the availability of WM schools is unfettered and the choices being made destroy social cohesion.
And by the way this:
“The fact is, pupils attending welsh medium schools are attending to be taught through the medium of welsh”
has been shown to be the third most popular reason for choosing a WM school.
“All you did was put forward a clearly false interpretation so that you could parade your tedious faux outrage”
You made your statement and backed it by producing percentages of children from ethinc minority backgrounds or who recieve free school meals. It is still your statement.
It all boils down to the assertion you are choosing to make based on the figures you produced. And it is certainly a new desperate low for gogwatch.
I could equally re-produce the same figures and suggest that parents who send their children to english medium schools might do so on predjudicial terms. This would be proven with a much greater margin in percentage terms.
I would have thought it was self evident that if parents want to have their children to mix with fewer pupils from welsh speaking backgrounds then English Medium schools are the way to go.
I don’t know why your not having a pop at private education if this issue concerns you so.
Rhen Lembeau says:
“I don’t know why your not having a pop at private education if this issue concerns you so.”
Possibly Rhen, because private education would be financed by the parents who choose it for their children, whereas WM education is being financed with public money, then forced upon, many parents who do not choose it for their children?
Oh dear. English Medium schools in Cardiff are catchment schools. It’s parents taking their kids to WM schools that are making a positive choice to avoid catchment schools. The proof of the pudding would be to build a WM school in the middle of a deprived estate so that it was effectievly the only catchment school for that area. The question would be; “If the school had 40% of its local pupils on free school Meals would middle class parents from a mile away ferry their kids to the school to get the valued Welsh education?”
You would say “Yes, it would make no difference” I would say “No, it would make a hell of a difference in the uptake of Welsh education in that school.”
The problem with all this guff about the “Cognitive advantage” enjoyed by pupils taught two languages from an early age is that it has to have a provable beneficial outcome. Here we are in Wales, every child who took GCSE this year has been taught Welsh since the age of 5. 19% of GCSE pupils have taken their exams from Welsh Medium schools and the majority of those have done KS1 exclusively in Welsh. HAS WALES GOT WORLD BEATING GCSE RESULTS? NO!! DO PUPILS IN WM SCHOOLS HAVE BETTER RESULTS IN ENGLISH, MATHS AND SCIENCE? NO AGAIN!! And then there is the linguistic advantage that all our kids have so….DO WELSH KIDS TAKE MORE MFLs THAN KIDS IN ENGLAND. NO!! Maybe we produce a small numer of outstanding linguists then?
NOPE!2011″A” level: French A*+A Eng= 40.5% Wales= 32.2
German A*+A Eng= 42.4% Wales= 33%
Spanish A*=A Eng= 38.5% Wales= 26.6%
Welsh? A*+A….19.2%
It’s astonishing that people come on this site convinced of the unquestionable benefit of the bilingual education system and can point to not one single concrete outcome that even suggests that that benefit exists.
If this was kung-fu there would be a name for this move.
Something like;
偏轉 改變戰術
I don’t think you should speculate on what WM parents want, seeing as you do not see the merits of it. And as you say if the most important thing is choice it’s not up to parents to justify to you or anyone alse why they choose the schools they do. What makes their reasons any less valid than yours?
Again you have to ask why Welsh medium schools have an intake that come from a better socio-economic background for learning.
The original article was good but suffered from the same problem as most of the old WLB Welsh medium education propaganda. That is it comes without proper references to validate its assertions.
Perhaps one of Gogwatches aims should be to collect a series of references to prove and disprove some of the claims made by posters on this forum and in the media.
Easy ones to find should be:
1. Children are best educated at the primary stage through the language of their home and environment.
2. There is no advantage in being bilingual when trying to learn a third language.
1. It depends.
2. It’s impossible to prove or disprove since people with only one language can’t by definition learn a third..only a second.
Again this is true of the parents who dont want EM for their children. Isnt their tax being spent on an EM system they dont want or have any use for???? If this is your argument maybe WM parents should be protesting about expenditure on the EM system.
“maybe WM parents should be protesting about expenditure on the EM system.”
It’s only a matter of time! But since the right to WM (specifically) education is enshrined in law for the whole of Wales and the duty to premptively identify demand is a duty on LEAs there can’t be much complaint.
I would settle for an equal right nationwide for EM education.
what i dont understand is why north wales appears to differ so heavily. As I have said before. In the south there are definitely a higher number of EM (welsh 2nd lang) schools in individual counties than it sounds in North. Neath Port Talbot has one WM secondary school that covers the whole county, but numerous EM’s all over the county.
I was under the impression that WM secondaries were fewer than EM all over Wales. I am not as familiar with the primary sector.
Dear “primary school headteacher”
I’ll take more notice of your posting when you do it under your own name. If you showed the courage of your convictions, I should do the same.
Why should he/she need to be named in order to have something important to say?
I think you mean you WOULD do the same – or is that exemplary Wenglish?
Dafydd,is “Y carreg Wen” your family name?
Dafydd Garreg Wen,
That would not be showing “the courage of their convictions”
It would be showing “suicidal tendancies” towards their career.
As, I’m sure, you would know….
Are Meibion Glyndwyr prepared to offer up the names of their members to show the courage of their convictions?
A strange thing to say.
If that parallel had been drawn by a non-Gogwatcher the preverbial would indeed have hit the fan.
This head teachers ignorance is damaging our children. Do they not understand that bilingualism is massively benifisial and makes you a better rounded person with better prospects? why choose to be narrow?
Aled,
Is your spelling, grammar, pronoun use, punctuation and syntax typical of the ” better rounded person” to whom you refer?
I think you’ve made the headteacher’s point most effectively!
This website is absolutely hilarious! You are all not only verbally abusing each other online in a very childish manner, but also confusing issues, stating complete nonsense to be fact, and spouting borderline racism through the thin veil of this site’s claim to care about Welsh people and their culture.
Good grief, if only the lads in the 1960s-80s had gfiven up and gone home, Welsh might have died out by now and you could all relax a little.
Kindly allow the language of Wales to be given a chance to survive by showing it some more respect. If you don’t want to learn it, that’s your choice, but when the French, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Polish, Swedes, Danes, Norwegians and Hungarians stop ‘forcing’ their languages on their children, I’ll agree Welsh should not be taught.
I for one am proud to speak Welsh, and had I not been given the chance to improve my Welsh speaking in school and college, my life would be a poorer one. I see the ability to speak Welsh as an honour, and those who complain about it being made a requirement for jobs or education ought to read up on the fate of Manx or Cornish and see what happens when languages are not pushed.
Hogynda says:
February 24, 2012 at 1:02 am
“If you don’t want to learn it, that’s your choice”
That’s the point – it isn’t; it’s somebody else’s!!!
reply
“Do they not understand that bilingualism is massively benifisial and makes you a better rounded person with better prospects? why choose to be narrow?”
Aled, you crease me up…..”benefisial”…..”A better rounded person?” Those obese illiterates will be having a field day!
The only thing that I can’t argue with is the prospects. Plenty of employers insist on Welsh Language capabilities….none would dare reject an applicant on the grounds of English literacy.
“bilingualism is massively benifisial”
Where’s the evidence?
Bilingualism may be beneficial although but being forcibly educated through a language that you don’t understand isn’t.
Up until 1965 all bilingual education systems showed academic retardation of between 2 to 4 years. Then one French – English system trialed in Canada worked (in that the majority of students were of the same standard as those educated through their mother tongue).
It was never claimed to be better but at least the children weren’t behind their peer group as they applied to higher education institutions.
The author of the Canadian system was allegedly asked about it’s application in Wales. “It won’t work as the languages don’t have the same status” was his reply.
In a meta analysis on the benefits of bilingualism – benefits exist where children are exposed to both languages in family and social settings.
Both languages being used only in academic settings have a negative impact.
I am pro-education not anti-Welsh. The current WAG policies seem to be anti-Wales as we need well educated young people to take this country into the 21st century.
I think that anyone who can read a newspaper knows that we aren’t giving our young people the education they need.
That’s strange, both Plasmawr and Glantaf have over 50% of their pupils coming from non welsh speaking backgrounds, and they both seem to be doing ok.
in fact Plasmawr seem to have 79% of their pupils coming from non welsh speaking backgrounds and it’s in Band 2, ranked 7th out of the 20 high schools in cardiff.
Firstly, Hen Lembeau, you need to carefully consider what you are saying when you say that pupils come from a “Non Welsh speaking Background”. Estyn records those from homes where Welsh is the first language and only rarely comments on whether one or other parent is a Welsh speaker.
The percentage of pupils who don’t have Welsh as a main home language in Glantaf is 77%. From looking at those few reports that mention homes with a fluent Welsh speaker in them you could guess that half of that 77% of pupils has one parent who is fluent in Welsh.
Welsh Medium schooling works well, in my opinion, when those pupils who aren’t thriving in that environment have an opportunity to move to an English Medium school. This is the case in the cities but not the case in rural areas and not the case in the Fro Cymraeg.
Firstly, I don’t think guessing is much use. Secondly, what percentage of pupils who’ve attend WM from non welsh speaking backgrounds in Cadiff have subsequently moved to EM?
In the case of Y Fro Cymraeg. The welsh language should be more commonly used in social situations so the case made by ‘Bad Bard’ would only be diluted further.
By the way;
“79% of the pupils come from homes where Welsh is not spoken”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ysgol_Gymraeg_Plasmawr
I can only go on that, perhaps you should corrct it, Wikipedia allows anyone to challenge innacurate information.
Guessing is just that. If I had a firm figure I would give it but the alternative to “Guessing” that a substantial number of households whose children go Glantaf have one fluent Welsh speaker in them is to discount that possibility entirely. Evidence would immediately point to the stupidity of that stance.
I used the most up to date Estyn report for GLANTAF, which is very recent. You originally lumped the two Cardiff schools together and I quoted the figure for one of them simply because it was the most recent.
Why is the debate dwelling on WM? The post is about EM schools and the forced emphasis on Welsh for all pupils without choice.
WM parents have made their choice!
The original and true language in ALL Cymru was ever cymraeg, if you were born and fed, in Cymru, you might love your language and culture, if you don’t then you are nothing, neither cymry nor english, for the english you are a taffy, and for the cymry you are a disgrace, go to England and live there, and let the cymry have their own language and culture…and stop posting embarrasing speeches…
Now come on Claudio Vincent Williams, make your mind up. Who are you to be, Claudio or Glan Camwy?
You claim that Cymraeg is and was the language of Cymru. How about Brythonig and the previous gruntings that may have been around. Why choose Cymraeg? The vast majority of us have chosen English.
Again, you, as a language zealot, resort to the old ploy of raining insults upon those who disagree with your blinkered outlook.
You then propose ethnic cleansing for we deatractors. That’s not very nice, you know. You should remember that we outnumber you by a massive factor. We don’t mind you chattering away in your old language. The only objection is when you ask us to pay for your linguistic indulgence.
Please carry on speaking the language of the hearth if you like. The rest of us have moved on to the language of the Centrally Heated Radiator. It’s so much cleaner and less fuss.
“resort to the old ploy of raining insults upon those who disagree with your blinkered outlook.”
the pot calls the kettle black!
Was I referring to you?
Choice is important but not all the posters on this forum have been given a choice of education for their children.
To promote WM education the main tactic used by WAG seems to be to undermine the quality of EM education.
Promotion of the Welsh language and education should be separate responsibilities for WAG ministers.
The English have spent centuries trying to destroy the Welsh culture and its language.I see they are now very close to success using the strategy of Odysseus. Cleverly done.
I seriously doubt the English have bothered getting the Welsh drunk, blinding them and I definitely haven’t seen anybody tied to the underside of sheep.
Or were you referring to a different strategy?
The Welsh have done all the damage to the language themselves. Virtually the only time you will hear Welsh being spoken outside of the “Ardal Cymraeg” is when they wish to exclude others.
When Welsh was the language of our communities, people chose not to speak it to incomers (even Welsh speakers from other parts of Wales) and so they did not become part of that community but formed new and very successful English speaking communities.
I doubt if people in England care in the slightest about Wales and the Welsh language. Why should they? Every country in this world of ours has problems and frankly not getting your gas bill in a language of your choice is not a major one.
I assume our current conservative Prime Minister has to be reminded who Carwyn Jones is and who on earth is Leighton Andrews and does anyone know who’s in charge of health in Wales?
All the English have done is give a Welsh minority the right to wreck the education and health services of our Country.
But don’t blame the English it’s what we wanted!
I wholeheardly agree and feel that the majority are being penalised by the obsessions of the 10% minority.
There is scant evidence that the Welsh language has an economic value, that is beyond inter-trading in the communities in which it is spoken.
In terms of overseas trade, exports, it is more likely to hinder than help our efforts to become a stronger economy. In terms of attracting business and talent, my experience is that the language deters both from settling in Wales, the latter in particular concerned at the effect of the Welsh language on their children education and their future prospects.
I agree that some are attracted to settle and embrace the culture and language, but they are in the minority and usually of the professional and academic classes, to whom learning the Welsh language has cachet and employer support. With children all over the world clambering to speak English we hear this week that money is to be spent on encouraging young people to ‘adopt the language as part of their social life’. presumably another attempt to halt the increasing attrition rate.
The silent majority should be made aware of the costs of supporting the language and be given the opportunity voice their opinion on how future resources should be deployed.
I remember some years ago that the boss of an Irish company wrote a piece for the Daily Post. It was at a time when Ynys Mon in particular was trying hard to forge trade and business links with Ireland. This man had said that he was at one time considering setting up business in Llangefni but decided against it because of the Welsh Language education issue. He recognised that he would have to move a core of his personnel to Ynys Mon to set up and provide initial training. They had seriously looked into this but none of the workforce would accept their children being put into WM schools! He regretfully declined to locate to Ynys Mon.
I expected a clamour of outrage in the letters page the next day….nothing.
Do these companies have the same problems around the world then? avoiding goin to France so their children wont have to learn french, or Iceland because of their native language. There is also english medium education in Anglesey, Holyhead? Also you do First language English in every school in Wales…what’s the big deal?
Hello there,
I am struggling to come to terms with the inconsistencies in you’re argument. You say the value of learning English outways the value of learning Welsh. I can understand you’re argument in this case but if we are going to use these arguments then shouldn’t Chinese be top of the agenda? I am a Welsh speaker and you may notice that my English isn’t bad. Could you reply in Welsh with the same level of articulation? At the end of the day learning welsh has activated a part of my brain which now means learning other languages is easier than it may be for others. Welsh medium schools have a considerably higher success rate in foreign languages than their english counterparts (both sides of the border). Sometimes the anglo saxon straight forward way of thinking doesn’t give you all of the answers.
Hwyl am y tro.
i’m sorry but the reactions here are a load of drivel. I’m a native welsh speaker and have never had any problems learning first language english in school, it seems to me that most ‘difficulties’ come from the home. Also, i dont get a choice to learn in the language i wish – ALL children in wales MUST do english but you complain when your children have to do a bit of welsh in schools – most welsh children do as much welsh as i did of french in school. Being able to speak welsh is just a bonus – when in company of those who speak welsh you can be a part of that conversation – you can get work easier in any part of wales.
Ignorance is obviously a growing problem in wales!
GHIBLI – I don’t think you’ve read all the arguments properly, or indeed any policy emanating from the Welsh Assembly Government – This isn’t about children having to “do a bit of Welsh in schools”. It’s about education policy which aims to reduce English-medium provision and undermine fair and open CHOICE. As more and more primary schools become Welsh-medium only, children are having to learn through the medium of Welsh whether they like it or not.
Good that should be the language of Wales in my opinion. Cut down on English immigration
Hi there! I am a student of the University of amsterdam and I am actually doing a survey about the Welsh languege in education. Your opinions would do me a lot of good. Could you fill in my survey at:
http://www.misterpoll.com/polls/553168
I would much appreciate it as it could help me with my thesis question.
Totally agree with the post. children need to be educated in areas that will lead to employment opportunities, Welsh Language is not an issue in iteself, but MANDATORY Welsh language lessons are.
As someone who voluntarily teaches children Martial Arts, how long before someone instructs me that it is the law that i teach them in the medium of Welsh ?
Out of the scores of children I teach, the vast majority who went to a Welsh Language junior school, left to go to a english language comprehensive, because the School was better in areas such as science and maths.
In times of austerity, what’s the point ? – Really, it is a luxury we can ill afford right now.
I am a fluent Welsh speaker and I attend Welsh school, and i can honestly say that the decision my parents made to send me to a FULL Welsh school is the best thing they ever done for my future. The reason for the welsh government trying to get more children in wales to speak Welsh is because THE LANGUAGE IS DYING OUT! people don’t realize that Welsh is so similar to other languages such as German and French, and it’s so easy for children to pick it up.. people are saying about England having so many cultures and languages spoken there, but in all honesty how many of these languages are going to be learned? learning the welsh language as a child is a gateway to being able to pick up other languages a lot easier. another reason for children to speak welsh is that it gives a lot more opportunities in their futures, it leads to more job opportunities and a wider range of universities in wales to choose from. how someone who comes from wales and was brought up in wales can say that they don’t agree with children having to learn the language is appalling. as a head teacher you should want what’s best for your pupils, and learning a new language is an amazing thing, also research shows that once you have mastered two languages, learning others becomes simpler. Learning anything is good for you! The longer you can keep the mind active, the fitter your mind will be, So why not learn Welsh? the welsh language happens to be one of the oldest languages that is still spoken today, it came before the English language and had an influence on parts of the language, the word ‘car’ for instance is actually a welsh word. it’s used in the welsh language in the exact same way that it’s spelled but is said in a different way. a phew points to mull over before jumping in and talking about how bad it might be or how it’s not a good idea.